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Question

Rev 14:9-11, 19:3 -- OT source imagery (Isa 34:9-10, Gen 19:28, Mal 4:1-3). Ongoing torment vs. permanent destruction? Apply Tree 3 genre gate.

Expanded question: What do Revelation 14:9-11 and 19:3 describe? What is the OT background for the imagery of smoke ascending "for ever and ever," fire and brimstone, and "no rest day nor night"? Does this language describe ongoing conscious torment, or does it describe the permanent and complete nature of destruction?

Topics

BRIMSTONE

Full Nave's Entry: - Fire and, rained upon Sodom GEN 19:24; LUK 17:29 - In Palestine DEU 29:23 - FIGURATIVE JOB 18:15; PSA 11:6; ISA 30:33; EZK 38:22; REV 9:17,18; 14:10; 19:20; 21:8

Key observations: - The first biblical occurrence of brimstone (Gen 19:24) describes Sodom's destruction -- a completed, ended judgment - Nave's classifies the majority of brimstone references as FIGURATIVE (6 of 8 references) - All NT brimstone references (Rev 9:17,18; 14:10; 19:20; 21:8; Luke 17:29) are categorized under FIGURATIVE - Luke 17:29, the only non-Revelation NT use, refers to Sodom -- a completed destruction - Every OT brimstone passage describes an act of destruction, not ongoing torment

SMOKE

Full Nave's Entry: - FIGURATIVE ISA 6:4; HOS 13:3

Key observations: - Nave's only lists two FIGURATIVE uses of smoke - Hos 13:3: "as the smoke out of the chimney" -- listed under WICKED PEOPLE, "Compared with" alongside morning clouds, early dew, chaff -- all images of transience and vanishing - Isa 6:4: smoke fills the temple at God's presence (theophany) - The Nave's classification of smoke as "figurative" and its association with transience (Hos 13:3) is significant

FIRE (including EVERLASTING FIRE subsection)

Full Nave's Entry (relevant sections): - FIGURATIVE: - Of inspiration ISA 6:6,7 - Spiritual power PSA 104:4; JER 20:9; MAT 3:11; LUK 3:16 - Judgments DEU 4:24; 32:22; ISA 33:14; JER 23:29; AMO 1:4,7,10,12,14; 2:2; MAL 3:2; LUK 12:49; REV 20:9 - Of the destruction of the wicked MAT 13:42,50; 25:41; MRK 9:44; REV 9:2; 21:8 - EVERLASTING FIRE ISA 33:14; MAT 18:8; 25:41; MRK 9:44

Key observations: - Nave's categorizes fire in judgment contexts under FIGURATIVE > "Of the destruction of the wicked" - The classification heading itself says "destruction" -- not "torment" or "ongoing suffering" - REV 20:9 is listed under FIGURATIVE > Judgments - REV 21:8 is listed under FIGURATIVE > "Of the destruction of the wicked" - Everlasting fire references: ISA 33:14; MAT 18:8; 25:41; MRK 9:44

PUNISHMENT, ETERNAL

Full Nave's Entry: - ISA 34:8-10; DAN 12:2; MAT 3:12; 10:28; 18:8; 25:41,46; MRK 3:29; LUK 3:17; JHN 5:29; HEB 6:2; 10:28-31; REV 14:10,11; 19:3; 20:10

Key observations: - Isa 34:8-10 is the FIRST OT citation under "eternal punishment" -- Nave's itself categorizes Edom's judgment as an "eternal punishment" text - The Isa 34:8-10 passage describes Edom, which is not still burning (animals inhabit the territory, Isa 34:11-17) - Mat 10:28 is included -- "destroy both soul and body in hell" (destruction vocabulary, not torment vocabulary) - Rev 14:10,11; 19:3; 20:10 are the Revelation passages central to this study - Cross-references: See WICKED, PUNISHMENT OF

VISION (relevant to genre gate)

Nave's Entry (excerpt relevant to Revelation): - A mode of revelation NUM 12:6; 1SA 3:1; 2CH 26:5; PSA 89:19; PRO 29:18 - Of John on the island of Patmos: The Book of Revelation -- listed as a vision - The angel proclaiming the fall of Babylon REV 14:8-13 - The destruction of Babylon REV 18 - The multitude praising REV 19:1-9 - Satan bound for one-thousand years REV 20:1-3 - The thrones of judgment, and the resurrection, and the release of Satan REV 20:1-10

Key observation: Nave's classifies the entire book of Revelation as a VISION, including REV 14:8-13 and REV 19:1-9 -- the exact passages under study. This is directly relevant to Tree 3 Gate 3 (genre gate).

WICKED, PUNISHMENT OF (cross-referenced from PUNISHMENT)

  • Cross-referenced from PUNISHMENT, ETERNAL
  • Contains extensive verse lists of passages describing God's judgment on the wicked

TORMENTS

  • Nave's lists: LUK 16:23-28; REV 14:10,11
  • Only two reference clusters; Luke 16 is a parable, Rev 14 is an apocalyptic vision

Research gathered: 2026-02-20

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